Believe the Bible, act militarily and get most of the ME for yourself. Simple!

The Bible says in Joshua ch1 v4 that Yahweh gave the land from the Mediterranean to the Tigris and Euphrates; from the cedars of Lebanon to the deserts of Sinai - ALL to Israel.

Should there not be another smart, quick, 6 Day War to claim this territory, as well?  After all, Israel/USA/UK is the biggest military alliance and power bloc in the world. WE rule the world.  And, we have three lots of magical nuclear weapons to use, too.  Just nuke the nations that get in our way.  How could we possibly lose?

Truly believe the Bible, claim its promises and get blessed with more land and oil fields and untold riches!

• Thomas

  June 24, 2014 
  9:36 am

  Unfortunate proof that this one, like fanatics of any persuasion, has left his sanity and humanity behind.

  REPLY
• Ron

  June 24, 2014 
  10:20 am

  There are some problems with your suggestion, Tim.

  Firstly, a country should only go to war as last resort, when diplomacy has failed and all other options are closed and the country’s freedom and survival is at stake. It is easy to bang the war drum, especially for politicians who don’t have to do the fighting. Short war or long war, people die and get hurt in war, as any soldier knows. Before the UK went into Afghan, a Scottish MP reckoned we might go in and out of Afghan “without a shot being fired”. At the time I said to myself, Is this idiot for real? Has he not studied the history of that country? Would he be so eager if he had to be the first onto the battlefield? Has he got a clear objective and does he understand the nature of the people we would be dealing with?

  Secondly, it is still the Wests’s policy that they will never be the first to instigate a nuclear attack. Our “nukes” are a deterrent, only to be deployed in self defence. Fortunately we control our nuclear arsenal responsibly. The principle of mutually assured destruction kept us from the brink during the Cold War. Even the Communist leaders were not that crazy. However if Iran gets nuclear weapons is there any doubt that the fanatically religious ayatollahs would use them – definately against Israel, and very probably against the USA, for starters?

  Thirdly, the likelihood of a joint tripartite military operation between the USA/UK/Israel is pretty low, if not non-existant. Despite his public assertions Obama does not “have Israel’s back”. He has lied consistently to US citizens over many scandals, he has purged the US military of senior officers who do not toe his political line, and he has supported the Muslim Brotherhood & other jihadist groups since day one of taking office. In fact, if you go back to the Suez Crisis in 1956, the Israeli/UK /France operation was scuppered by the US, who forced them to withdraw.

  When the Yom Kippur War broke out in 1973 the UK immediately froze all ammunition and spare parts deliveries for Israel’s tanks, which then were mostly British second hand Centurion tanks, at precisely the moment when they would be needed. That vulnerability was the catalyst for General Tal to be given the project to develop Israel’s own MBT, the Merkava. In the long Israel can only count on itself.

  Israel would get lip service for a military operation from the US & UK politicians but probably not much else. Robert Spencer & Pamela Geller, who are human rights champions, were banned from the UK not because their presence “would not be conducive to the public good” as Theresa May claimed in her banning letter, but as it turns out from Foreign & Commonwealth Office documents released to them for their legal appeal against the ban, because they were too supportive of Israel.

  War is sometimes a necessary evil, but there is always a price to be paid and we should never glibly propose it if we are not the ones who would have to fight it.

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• Mareli

  June 24, 2014 
  5:22 pm

  Tim Weller, dare I hope you are being sarcastic?

  REPLY
• Jonah

  June 25, 2014 
  9:56 pm

  You’re absolutely right about Joshua. Your enemy reads the Torah, too. That’s one of the reasons they want to kill all of you, so their will not be a second party to that covenant.

  REPLY

We have to be honest and face up to these 9 observations on the Faith!

God is wrong in having 'Rules for Waging Holy War' in Deuteronomy 20 v 1-20.

He is mistaken about homosexuality being immoral.  I believe I am right in saying that Christians, Muslims and Jews did nothing about changing the law to prevent homosexuals being imprisoned.  Now, all of them accept the new law without a murmur of dissent being heard.  Homosexuality is not unheard of in the animal kingdom, of which we are part, as the human animal.

God shows favouritism in having one nation out of 193 nations as his one and only Chosen, Special and No 1 nation who is the apple of His eye (Israel).  For the surrounding Arab nations, Israel is seen as part of the all powerful, all domineering, War of Terrorism Western powers.  The West is noted for its centuries of Christianity and, unfortunately, its Scriptures command the faithful to pray only for the peace of Jerusalem - certainly NOT Mecca or any other city!  Thus Israel is identified even here, with the West in the heart of the Arab and Muslim Middle East.

God has missed out the most obvious and much needed command that should be the first and foremost viz: "Thou shalt embrace non-violence and never embark on attack, aggression and dominating other countries." The last one, domination, in defiance of temptation 3 that Jesus rightly rejected.

The Lord's Commandment no 6 is not strong enough with "Thou shalt not murder."  It let the people of Israel off the hook to allow them to wipe out the inhabitants of the holy land - the land that God promised them and them alone - as now.  Hence, we have in the Bible how the people rejoiced that, "King Saul has slain his thousands but David his tens of thousands."  No wonder the modern people of Israel are so ready to attack their neighbours, of course in self defence and, so desperate not to kill women and children.  However, Israel always seems to end up killing many more of them than their enemy kill Israelis. Over ten times more in both the November 2012 attack on Gaza and the 2008/2009 war on Gaza when 1,400 Palestinians, unfortunately and quite unintentionally, of course, ended up dead.

All God-fearing Jews, Christians and Muslims should see this behaviour, above as morally deviant.  Perversely and shamefully they do not, viewing instead, homosexuality as being morally deviant.

God is wrong in having Kings and Queens over past centuries who all appointed themselves as having the authority and power of God on earth; together with Presidents and Prime Ministers down the years.  Two of them, since 7 October 2001 with the War of Terrorism, who both believed they were doing God's will in attacking first Afghanistan on 10/7 (2001) and then Iraq in March 2003.

God is prejudiced in disallowing women from positions of leadership in His church.  Yet, His Son was forgiving, compassionate and sympathetic to women - even those caught in adultery and, prostitutes, too.

It is unacceptable for God to promise one nation, Israel all the land from the cedars of Lebanon in the north to the deserts of Sinai in the south; from the rivers Euphrates and Tigris in the east to the Mediterranean Sea in the west (Joshua 1 v 4).  It all the more encourages that nation's expansionist tendencies, the growth of illegal settlements on the West Bank and in east Jerusalem; and, the flouting of UN resolutions.

"But its OUR land, not yours!"

OPEN LETTER TO RUTH JACOB, who showed the film on Israel at our church in September.

So say both the Palestinians and the Israelis.  Both are wrong and both are right.  Both can't compromise.  "The Israeli/Palestinian congflict is not black and white.  "Both are the good guys and the bad guys ... (this is) a clash between wrong and wrong ... a tragic clash between right and right ... (neither) pro Palestine nor pro Isarel but pro peace." said Amos Oz on 'Start the Week' on 5 November 2012.  Both will not share with the other, so both suffer and have less than the best - especially the Palestinians who are under the cosh, dominated and controlled.

Do you believe that the greater boundary of the Promised Land (Joshua 1 v 4) is a legitimate ambition for Israel once all of Judea and Samaria falls into its hands?

Why do you think Israel is surrounded by enemies?  Is this really something to be seen as a badge of honour, as the film seemed to think?  For many evangelical Christians, Israel is likened to God.  Israel is hated by the surrounding countries because as Jesus said,  "As they hated me, so they will hate you."  The very hatred for Israel by all its surrounding countries shows how Biblical prophecy is being fulfilled and is proof that God is slowly but surely working His purposes out in the Middle East for His greater glory.

Self defence against intermittent/interminable rockets coming over the border turns out, from time to time, to be an all out, large-scale military attack, invasion and re-occupation of Gaza, as we saw in Dec 2008 to January 2009.  Is that fair enough?

Do you want a state for Palestine, provided it is Gaza and it is Judea and Samaria that officially become part of Israel, along with East Jerusalem?

It seems to me, that evangelical Christians, like those who saw the film on Israel at Hasbury Christian Fellowship in September, back Israel every step of the way.  They do so as part of their work to help God give all the land, promised to only Israel and not to the Arabs, from the cedars of Lebanon in the north to the deserts of Sinai in the south and, from the great river Euphrates in the east to the Mediterranean Sea in the west (Joshua 1 v 4).  Evangelical Christians do so to make sure that Bible prophecy is fulfilled.  Only in this way is Armageddon (the end of the world) and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus hastened.

In other words, the solid Christian support for Jews and Israel, come what may, has an ulterior motive - to boost their own cause, to hasten the end of the world and, to turn Jews and Israelis into born again Christians, like themselves!

Friends of Israel AND of Palestine!

Dear friend - of Prayer for Israel organisation

I have picked up my wife's copy of your latest 'Prayer Bulletin' on this Christmas Day (2008) afternoon and read some of it.

It does seem to be more about saving native-born Israelis for an eternity in heaven, rather than working for a more heavenly holy land, in the hear and now, where justice is done and seen to be done for the impoverished Palestinians, as well as the paranoid Jews. Do you, in fact, see any part of your discipleship as being about opposing Israeli government policy when it comes to allowing further homes forJews by forcing out Palestinians and turning a blind eye to further settlements in the West Bank? The new Great Wall or fence is encroaching into great swathes of the West Bank to leave the suffering Palestinians in an even more desperate plight. They are being constricted into enclaves controlled by the IDF and seem to be treated like prisoners in poorly run, open prisons where all movement is determined by the Israelis. Is this the way for your friends in Israel - born again believers and devout Jews - to be conducting themselves? Do you think that this turning of the screw ever further on the oppressed Palestinians is the best way to win friends and influence people? Or do you feel it perpetuates the hatred for Israel - a wealthy and very powerful nation that has so much when the Palestinians have so little, in comparison? Even their lands and livelihoods and olive trees are taken away from them. Yet, Israel is a modern, Western, highly materialistic, regional super-power that is heavily armed and possesses WMD - funded by the West. Even then you write, "Israelis can't take for granted their right to exist"! You could not get a bigger contrast with the plight of the 'imprisoned' Palestinians who,with every attack by Israel, get wiped out in far bigger numbers than the Israelis. And, in true hypocritical style, Israel is always pointing the finger at Hamas and Hezbullah for wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the map. In fact, Israel justs get on with it without any of the talk. Israel is all action; the Palestinian groups are all talk, it seems to me!

I think an even more shocking contrast is the evangelicals supporting this rich and powerful nation when their Lord and Saviour is the despised and rejected of men and the friend of tax collectors and sinners. The Lord rejected the temptation to rule over the world which the Christian West has been doing for many centuries with its European empires and, now, with the Anglo-American-Israeli hegemony! I am horrified by my Messianic Christian family - and others at church - assenting to all this. I am sure it just washes over you, fails to impinge and you just get on with the more serious business of saving souls for eternity! Saved for an eternity in heaven but extra judicial assassinations and pre-emptive attacks (always in the name of defence, of course!) on Palestinian fighters - as well as even invading the weak and defenceless nation of Lebanon - is all perfectly acceptable for the disciples of the Lord in this small but violent nation. And, it got the blessing of our God-fearing, UK Prime Minister in July/August 2006 War on Lebanon!

You wrote, "There are more believers in the IDF than at any other time in her history." Do you not think there is something deeply contradictory in followers of the Way of Yeshua giving their first and only allegiance not to the King of Love, the Prince of Peace and the Creator/Ruler of theUniverse but to the very fallible and sinful, Prime Minister Olmert of Israel and his Cabinet? You publish a piece from HKACM, with pride and approval that even more true Christian and Messianic believers are engaged in illegal attacks and invasions on their neighbours, as members of the armed forces. Armed forces that kill many times more of their neighbours than the Palestinians kill of them! All this when they are called to love God and love their neighbour as themselves!

This shocking record by Christian believers and Jews has gone on for sixty years in a constant war of attrition between Palestinian fighters and the IDF. I think you should be teaching your young Christians and Messianic Jews to have nothing to do with the illegality and aggression of the Israeli state. If they cannot be excused from conscription, they should suffer the consequences of total Christian discipleship and go to prison for the Lord - a privilege and a joy in such circumstances!

Could you please explain if PFI can be described as Christian Zionist? Who or what is a Christian Zionist? It is Scriptural for us to "pray (enquire about) for the peace of Jerusalem". However, should this not also include praying for the peace of Arab and Palestinian refugee camps, villages and towns? And, does not praying for peace mean being loving, peaceful and fair in all our dealings rather than being warlike and indulging in crimes of aggression? In the 34 day attack on Lebanon, 158 Israelis were killed of whom the very large majority were service people but, the IDF killed over 1000 Lebanese andPalestinians of whom most were civilians. It does seem to me that if you can't live at peace and in justice with your neighbours - and, as a minimum, refuse to vote for the war parties at elections and refuse to be conscripted - you cannot possibly have made peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. "Judgement (and repentance) begins in the house of the Lord".

This I can't believe!

This I can't believe I can't believe in a God who created humans for the sole purpose of them worshipping and praising him and to give him pleasure. What kind of God is that? The Westminster Confession has, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever."

I can't believe in a God who, as part of his purposes for his special nation of Israel, that nation under God can slaughter over 1,000 Lebanese and Palestinians in 2006 in Lebanon and a further 1,300 Palestinians in Gaza in 2008/9. Jews for Jesus Christians, certainly, and other Christians, too believe that God is working his purposes out through Israel and, therefore, Israel's aggression is all part of God's wonderful plan for Israel. They also believe that Christ's return is dependant on the Jews return to Israel and their acceptance of Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. Israel's encroachment on to more and more of the West Bank is all part of God's glorious plan in these end times.

I can't believe that a God of justice and love, who is all powerful and all knowing can countenance the suffering, misery and large scale murder by the crown of his creation - humans killing humans. The track record of the West and the whites is easily the worst throughout the planet and down the centuries. Especially in the 20th century - the most ecocidal, suicidal and destructive in the history of humanity. And we all know which God fearers were responsible!