Discussion on the Bible used to justify and to legitimise USA/Israeli wars

FROM: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002tzl8

'Sunday' programme on Radio 4 on 12.4.26 - discussing the very vivid use of religious language in the rhetoric surrounding the war.  Also, Christian nationalistic religious rhetoric from Donald Trump and those who support him.  The president and Jesus over Easter.

Dr Toby Matthiesen, Snr Lecturer in Global Religious Studies at Bristol University said:

"We see an endorsement of a war of almost annihilation in a struggle between good and evil.  The blessing of troops.  American Minister of War, Pete Hegseth sees the American/Israeli War as a divine calling to fight against Iran."

Presenter, Edward Stourton said, "The regime in Iran is explicitly and rabidly a religious one but has not used the same level of religious rhetoric, have they?"

The Muslim expert, Kamin Mohammadi said, "Yes.  Iran has used the least religiously charged language ... and is leaning on international law rather than invoking any kind of holy war."

Stourton: Benjamin Netanyahu talks of Iran as Amalek, the biblical enemy of the people of Israel.  Is he using a shorthand or is he creating a narrative which associates this war with the history of the struggle of Israel in biblical terms?

Dr Klug, "PM Netanyahu is using the Bible to cynically promote a military campaign.  His use of the Bible is essentially instrumental."

Matthieson: The Pope reacted to the religious legitimisation of this war by key American evangelical preachers by openly denouncing the war and those who invoke God to wage war.  There is an absence of religious legitimisation on the Iranian side.

Presenter: Islam is unpopular in Iran because of its association with the government.  Is that the case?

Muslim/Iranian speaker: "Of all Islamic states, Iran has the lowest mosque attendance because it has repressed its people, killed them and disrespected their rights and dignity to freedom.  Iran is quite a devout Shia country and the people see these things being carried out by their government in the name of their quite peaceful religion.  In the region, Iran is possibly the most secular in terms of its population."

"Religious language and Bible texts are being used to promote war and destruction.  Speaking as someone who is Jewish, no-one that I know, fellow Jews, are anything other than as shocked as I am by how the settlers are behaving (in Judea and Samaria, aka the West Bank).  A political religious fundamentalism has taken over, treating the Bible as a political manifesto instead of a source of inspiration.  For Jews and others, it must be the latter and not the former."  Dr Brian Klug, Honorary Fellow in Social Philosophy at Campion Hall in Oxford.

Is 70 x 7 for revenge like Israel or, forgiveness like Christ?

The people of the Book, the Judeo-Christian nations, are all too ready to be guided by the bad example of the Old Testament Israelites in using warfare to get their way.

The New Testament life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, is not so appealing with its emphasis on forgiveness 70 x 7 instead of our Bibi believing 70 x 7 refers to revenge piled onto his war of aggression and disdain for what he's doing to his neighbours, even his immediate neighbours in Gaza, Judea, Samaria and Lebanon.

Friend Bibi is now in even closer partnership with Trump in starting an illegal, immoral war, that no side can possibly win but is causing tens of thousands of deaths and billions in pounds of pointless destruction to accelerate the Climate Emergency catastrophe for humanity.

Are Christian believers really on the side of God who wants what is good, right and just when I heard on Radio 4 that 80% of evangelical believers voted for Trump, a most unsuitable and unstable man to be a President of any country, let alone the USA?

Rogue Israel must give up its nukes for Iran to do likewise

A mountain of corpses is mounting up in both the unHoly Land of Gaza and in Lebanon and Iran. This is very largely the responsibility of the Judeo-Christian world because the power, the control, the governance of the Middle East has lain more with them since the British Empire beat the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

Prior to that, our naval arms race with Germany drove the desperate search for oil in Iran to convert our warships to oil.  Page 111, Bowen (read on for title): "The discovery of oil in southern Iran in 1908 changed everything, putting the Middle East front and centre in the minds of the leaders of the great powers, where it has stayed ever since. ... oil was much too precious to be left to the people who lived on top of it."

We Brits, followed by America, have been intervening, mostly disastrously, ever since. READ Jeremy Bowen - 'The Making of the Modern Middle East', pub 2022.  Informed, accurate, balanced and moderate in tone but critical when necessary.

Yet, the Labour government is subservient to Trump and refuses to impose BDS on Israel despite the mounting death toll which makes the mountain of corpses - added to every day.

Questions for God's nation - which is exceptionally wicked, immoral, violent

Is the USA's claim to be The One and Only Exceptional Nation really warranted?  "Is US exceptionalism warranted?", Ali Miraj asked on 5 April 2026 on LBC.

Why did God and the big majority of His Chosen People vote for, and for a second time too, the most foolish, immoral and even a convicted felon of a President of the USA?

The USA is a nation founded by devout, Bible-believing, fundamentalist, Puritan Christians which led to the almost total extermination of the native Indian population who had been there for many tens of thousands of years - and, living sustainably too.  How on earth could this have happened?

God's People have always been caught up in every activity of humans - from going to space to going to war.  Even pastors and evangelists caught in sexual immorality and unfaithfulness, traditionally seen by them as being especially wicked and sinful.

Why are the God-fearing Puritans, now known as being responsible for using their eleven years in government for executing the only monarch in over a thousand years of British history?

And it was these Puritans, like John Winthrop, who were the founding fathers of America.  They, with their Bible giving a mixed picture of sin, violence, immorality along with the noble example of Christ, led to the wipe out of the indigenous population and decades of slavery.

80% of evangelicals voted Trump in 2024, I heard reported on BBC Radio 4.

Why are those, closest to the ear and mouth of God who keeps the universe running, so blind and deaf to the entreaties of some of us over the need

to live more sustainably;

more simply to allow others to simply live;

to tread more lightly on the planet;

to use diplomacy, talks, give and take, rather than warfare;

to understand that what we take today in the way of non-renewable minerals, we won't have tomorrow;

to live in tune with nature for everyday living rather than, as the apex predator, thinking we can get away with anything and everything for ever and a day?

Why is the USA, with its satellite states like the UK and Canada, the apex predator in the world today?

Why is Iran being targeted for attack by the apex predator with the horrors of mainly civilians killed warfare, when they had agreed an international treaty over nuclear weapons in 2015 and they are tenth, NOT first, on Open Doors list of having the most persecuted Christians?

Is it really the most upstanding, exceptional nation, the shining beacon, set on a hill as the perfect model, the Exemplar for all other nations to strive for?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  FROM: In Congress, July 4, 1776 - The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

A curse on humanity when we are meant to be a blessing.

Such has been the devastating impact of the Judeo-Christian empires on the world over recent centuries, I think they have all been a curse on humanity.

The descendants of Abraham were meant to be a blessing on the nations of the earth. It has turned out nothing like that. Utterly shameful.

For me, it brings into question the authenticity or veracity or value of those parts of Scripture which are obviously suspect.

The Gospels, read by David Suchet are superb, however - socialist, humane, civilised.   RECOMMENDED!

"I'm not convinced that having nukes keeps a country safe from attack."

You made the point: "I'm not convinced that having nukes keeps a country safe from attack."

Safe from attack as 80 years of no attacks has proved.  But it has come close, with only Russia showing restraint at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

Perhaps only safe as regards the major players - USSR/Russia v the West who have never used them on themselves because of Mutually Assured Destruction.  It seems to me that the worst culprit is the Great Western Powers who have abused their powers over the centuries.  If you sow the wind you reap the whirlwind.  In other words it comes back to haunt you as we found with Iran's nasty, vicious rulers on their people.  We taught them how to do it!  Treat other peoples cruelly, as we have done and they soon become just as cruel.  We treated the Jews cruelly and they are treating the Gazans, Palestinians and Lebanese cruelly.

MAD has kept the peace from balanced out power between the major players.  No peace with Israel because only they have WMD in the Middle East; yet, they remain so paranoid they have to maintain the attacks to maintain their hold on the land, so get understandable attacks back from the nations like Iran that they are so hostile to!

It is the fear of your deadly enemy getting WMD and using them against you that leads to war, as we have found this time - from 28 Feb with Bibi and Don: THE  men of violence.  It was the fear of Saddam having nukes that led our side to go to war with Iraq in March 2003 in the 2nd Gulf War.  Yet, I read in Bibi's book that it was Israel who destroyed Iraq's nukes years before!  In defeating Iraq we destroyed the MAD balance between Iran and Iraq.  It was a catastrophe for Iraq.  We are now trying the same tactic on Iran, to destroy them, leave chaos and Iranians desperate for the peace and security of Europe.

Remove Saddam to get peace and harmony in the region, "taking away the toxic fuel that powered Islamist extremism.  Democracy would replace dictatorship.  Israel would be safer."  Bowen p 129

"As of 2025, the nine countries possessing nuclear weapons are Russia, the United States, China, France, the United Kingdom, India, Pakistan, Israel, and North Korea."  from Ecosia AI

It is very telling that our allies on our side are allowed to have them secretly, like Israel with no sanctions as a penalty, but not Iran.  As always, we favour our own friends over the others!  We are allowed to get away with wrongdoing because we are part of Donald's World Empire.

What follows is my understanding and conclusions from Jeremy Bowen's 'The Making of the Modern Middle East', especially the chapter on Iran called, 'In the Name of God'. From p 108

We cannot allow Iran to have nukes because, since the 19th century, Britain first, then with America, has dominated the Middle East with all our many self-serving interventions by "perfidious Albion" (us!).  Therefore, we set a very bad example with the decisions we took in Iran to show them that we are Boss.  My list of our sins:

1. In 1820 we took control of the Persian Gulf to prevent pirates from operating to disrupt our supply lines between our colonies and the motherland;
2. the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire to be replaced by the Western Judeo-Christian Empire;
3. the Arabs sidelined and losing out over the carve up of the Middle East by Britain, France and America, the most powerful bloc in the League of Nations;
4. Mandate for Britain to rule Palestine and Transjordan;
5. Mandate for France to rule Syria and Lebanon;
6. T E Lawrence was let down along with the Arabs even though they had helped us 'win' the First World War;
7. the major illegality under international law (land gained from aggression is kept) was America allowing our Jewish/Zionist friends to have the weapons to overthrow the British Empire in 1948 and, by superiority of everything, to defeat the Arab nations, too in 1948 and in subsequent wars.  Bowen on p 60 records examples of how "Like all wars it was a brutal business" in April 1948.  But it was Jewish David v Arab Goliath.
8. America and Britain replaced democratically elected President Mossadeq in 1953 with our man, the Shah of Iran.  "The shah was an autocrat at the head of a vicious police state that allowed no political freedom."  - Jeremy Bowen p 116.
9. American shooting down of an Iranian airliner in 1988.
10. In brief, the major injustices were: our side's hostilities to the people of the Middle East and our insistence on maintaining our importance to ensure we got our way in the region.

I think, all this must have led to Iran's hostile reaction to the American led West, including Israel.  It certainly could not have helped.  I think they have been more sinned against by us lot, which may have led to Islam becoming even more dominant and extreme in Iran.  Although with 9/11, 15 of the 19 hi-jackers were Saudi, an ally of the West.  None were from Iraq or Iran.

You mention "religious fanaticism" but we don't see it from Muslims in Britain or in other Muslim regions of the world.  Right wing, Christian nationalism in America is more of a problem, methinks.  They are fanatics, zealots for war instead of diplomacy and tolerant, peaceful, co-existence.  Peter Hegseth and Trump and Netanyahu don't know the meaning of those words.

Bible-believing Christians

Bible-believing Christians tend to give Israel a pass, an excuse, every sympathy because of the Bible and the land having a special place in God's heart. Different standards are applied to them, the Israelis - so they get away with murder, literally and the breaking of normal standards of behaviour. 

Mountain of Corpses

A mountain of corpses is mounting up in both the unHoly Land ​of Gaza and in Lebanon and Iran. This is very largely the responsibility of the Judeo-Christian world because the power, the control, the governance of the Middle East has lain more with them since the British Empire beat the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

Prior to that, our naval arms race with Germany drove the desperate search for oil in Iran to convert our warships to oil.

We Brits, followed by Britain and America, have been intervening, mostly disastrously, ever since. READ Jeremy Bowen - 'The Making of the Modern Middle East', pub 2022.​  Informed, accurate, balanced and moderate in tone but critical when necessary.

Yet, the Labour government is subservient to Trump and refuses to impose BDS on Israel despite the mounting death toll which makes the mountain of corpses - added to every day.

Scott Mills, sacked broadcaster - more sinned against than sinning

The people responsible, after all these years (going back to the 1990s), have been harsh, far too strict and merciless, have over-reacted and blown things up out of all proportion.  Is this Tim Davie, again?!

This is not the first time the BBC has shot itself in the foot by making a mountain out of a mole hill and failing to show some perspective, good sense and moderation.  The furore over the BBC Panorama edit, which seemed perfectly acceptable to me, is one example.  There was also the outcry over the teenage son of the Dep Minister of Agriculture, over what was left of the Palestine/Hamas government, being allowed to narrate a documentary film on Gaza.  Then we had medics in Gaza featured in a film and the BBC not broadcasting it, after being targetted by the Israeli side criticising the film!

Yet, again the BBC has behaved in a suicidal way and made things far worse than they need to be for themselves.  And, perhaps, wrecked a man's broadcasting career, at least for the time being.

Both the Bible and conservative evangelical Christians ...

 ... have been a great comfort and encouragement to Bibi Netanyahu and to Donald Trump; and for many years, too in the case of the longest serving Prime Minister in Israel's history.

I think there needs to be much soul searching and a little self-awareness by my friends over where exactly their first loyalty and love lies.  Is it to God's Chosen People holding once again the land first conquered by them three and a half thousand year ago or, to the carpenter from Nazareth who had nowhere to lay His head for much of His ministry, let alone owning land and property?

Which of these men are nearest to the spirit of the Man for Others from Nazareth:

1. Benjamin Netanyahu, whose mighty tome of 654 pages I have read from cover to cover (and much enjoyed) who believes and actions coercion, force, violence and warfare?
2. Donald J Trump, the mighty business magnate and property developer and owner of golf courses who also believes and actions coercion, force, violence and warfare?
3. St Francis of Assisi who had nothing, was powerless and non-violent?
4. Mahatma Gandhi, similarly?
5. Both admired and followed the Way of Jesus as found in his life and teaching in the truly magnificent four Gospels of genuine humanity, compassion and mercy.

Clun footbridge - not safe for small children playing pooh sticks

Please can foot boards (aka kick boards), similar to those fitted on scaffolding as a vital health and safety measure, be fitted on the R Clun footbridge in the village?

When she was 3 in 2024, my granddaughter, Gwennie Willson, nearly slipped through between the bottom rail and the floor boards when she was playing pooh sticks.  I was with her and, I think, my grabbing of her arm stopped her landing in the water.

My daughter's family live near Pontesbury and my wife and I live in Halesowen, W Midlands.  I did write at the time but nothing was done.  My offer to pay still stands!  Especially, if it is Will or his son, John up on the Llwyn Road doing the very easy job for them.  It's the house they built a few years ago.  I mentioned it to them and Elaine a week or two ago.

The terror trio cheered on by the evangelicals

I am troubled by evangelical Christians giving carte blanche to today's Israeli and American war leaders to exterminate Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis in accordance with God's commands to completely wipe out the Amalekites and the people of Jericho in the Bible.

These men and women of violence wipe out more civilians like me than the fighters.

The Islamists or jihadists are ripe for God's judgement and slaughter by today's world leaders like Trump, Netanyahu and Putin.  The Old Testament passages of God's Chosen People being told by God to go ahead with wholesale aggression and revenge attacks is totally unacceptable and should be erased from the Scriptures of these two world faiths.

The terror trio target their fellow military, perhaps but, it is mainly people like me who get wiped out.  We are slaughtered by the good Lord using Bibi and Donald with their fervent pious believers cheering them on.

This is obscene.

EDIT OUT, not re-enchant the Bible

“As people seek re-enchantment through the story of Scripture, what sort of questions will they encounter along the way? In this interview I try to help to make sense of them. I join with Belle and Justin to re-enchant... the Bible’s embarrassing bits.”   Andrew Ollerton

Andrew, this is all apologetics or, putting a gloss or a whitewash on immorality and murder which must be edited OUT of the Bible in the light of our murderous, genocidal behaviour in Gaza, Judea, Samaria, Lebanon and Iran - all done by Israel's generals and politicians quoting the very bad examples in Exodus and Joshua.  Our behaviour is obscene and scandalous and hypocritical. A second holocaust, that the Jews are caught up in, is NOT the Way of Jesus.

The Way of Jesus is replaced by wars of aggression and revenge

Many thanks for this, Andy.  It is excellent and shows what the Way of Jesus is all about.  I think, far too few in Israel and the West understand the life and teaching of Christ and how it must be implemented today.  Not like we've been doing for 1,700 years!  Right wing Christianity leads to these ecocidal, foolish wars and lifestyle choices meaning we grab what we can while the going is good and never mind tomorrow.  Live for today but hell to pay tomorrow without Jesus' Way of social and ecological justice.

I heard on the 'Today' programme, just now, that Chinese shipping is being allowed through the Straits of Hormuz but not ours.  Understandably so.

Peoples of the Book are failing to ...

... renounce, to refuse to obey the ungodly and immoral commands of Bibi Netanyahu and Donald Trump who are far too ready to model themselves on the extermination of Israel's enemies recorded in the Bible, in Exodus and Joshua.

Many of the actions of these two men are war crimes.  Christian believers should be walking firmly in the narrow Way of Jesus.  Their votes for Trump and sympathies for Bibi, mean they are also carrying out retribution on civilians and are, therefore, war crimes.

I wrote 'Peoples of the Book' because Bibi is representing the Jews and Donald the Christians.  Both lots helped to get them elected.

Both men betray their respective faiths in initiating wars of aggression and revenge contrary to the rules based system to protect civilians in times of war, quite apart from the moral code of these two faiths completely shattered by these murderous leaders.

St Francis - hero!

2026 is 800 years since St Francis died and 100 years since St Francis Bournville was built. A new play by Malcolm Morse has been written and is to be performed by members of our congregation and friends at 7pm on Friday April 10^th and 2.30pm the following day. The attached posters indicate how tickets may be bought on line or over the phone.

St Francis was the son of a rich merchant who felt called by Jesus to give up all his possessions and share the life of the poorest people of his day. Over 17 years he attracted almost 5,000 followers. He brokered a truce in the Crusades. He introduced the Christmas crib. He called people to reverence the natural world and all its creatures. Less than two years after his death he was declared a saint. He composed the first poem in the Italian language, left many writings and a biography of him was published within three years of his death. Above all he loved: God, people, life, spreading joy and laughter among his contemporaries.          John Nightingale

The Bible weaponised to justify extermination of Gazans

The people of the Book, the Judeo-Christian nations, are all too ready to be guided by the bad example of the OT Israelites in using warfare to get their way.

The NT life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, is not so appealing with its emphasis on forgiveness 7x70 instead of our Bibi believing 70 x7 refers to revenge piled onto his war of aggression and disdain for what he's doing to his neighbours, even his immediate neighbours in Gaza, Judea, Samaria and Lebanon.

Friend Bibi is now in even closer partnership with Trump in starting an illegal, immoral war, that no side can possibly win but is causing thousands of deaths and billions in pounds of pointless destruction to accelerate the Climate Emergency catastrophe for humanity.

Are Christian believers really on the side of God who wants what is good, right and just?  I heard on Radio 4 that 80% of evangelical believers voted for Trump in November 2024, a most unsuitable and unstable man to be a President of any country, let alone the USA.  Do you accept this verdict of mine?

Andrew, your chapter on warfare and violence in 'God's Book' is an excellent apologia for God's commands to "utterly destroy" many enemies of His in the Promised Land of Canaan.  What you have written is all very well but the real, frightening problem is that certain evangelicals, army generals and politicians use those very bad examples in Exodus and Joshua to get on with doing the same to the people of today's most unHoly Land.  Not only the over 70,000 mainly women and children in Gaza slaughtered but the many thousands on both sides but, overwhelmingly, Palestinians exterminated in 80 years of today's people of Israel fighting to keep the Promised Land promised to only them - and definitely NOT the Arabs/Palestinians.

God's Book as a handbook of how we are to live in international peace and harmony simply does not work, does not give an unequivocal, consistent example and instruction for living today.  Unless, you insist that the life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth in the four Gospels must have pre-eminence over the rest of the 62 books as regards practical day to day living.

Andrew, do you accept that a major section of the story of God's people in the Bible was used to justify the extermination of the Amalekites and Jericho?  That precedent/example was used by Bibi Netanyahu's government to disproportionately and indiscriminately slaughter today's inhabitants in Gaza, to the tune of over 70,000.  Only a minority of that figure were fighters killed while protecting their land from invasion, as international law allows.  Is that true?

You have nukes to stop nuclear attacks - it has worked!

I thought the wealthy nations, world's superpower, USA/Israel went for WMD to prevent them from being attacked.  So why does USA/Israel not only have them in great quantities but must also stop other nations from getting them, too by attacking them?

But USA/Israel will not attack N Korea, only Iran which is years away from getting them!

Council minibus ticking over and FINES from bus gates/lanes because of inadequate warning notices

Idling minibus was going through "tests", on 26 March 2026, while the two men were idling chatting nearby; AND, Bus Gate signs missing to catch motorists in order to fine them!

As a complete stranger to Stockport and High Lane village - to take my wife to the Biobank in Stockport for medical research - I was caught out twice with two £30 fines, which arrived a couple of weeks later when we got home because of missing warning signs to make it clear that our car was approaching a bus gate/lane that was coming up and a £60 fine would ensue, if the motorist did not stop and reverse.

One was at Buxton Road, High Lane village when I was trying to find the A555.  The other was in Stockport centre when trying to find the council multi-storey car park, Redrock, that we made good use of.  Poor signage again.

Why was there the stationary, idling minibus at the Disley Community Centre - and for many minutes, too?  One council worker informed me that it was having to go through compulsory safety checks.  However, there are these disadvantages:

• Private motorists never go through many minutes of aimless idling of the engine before moving off.
• It wastes finite fossil fuels and council taxpayers' money.
• Once international oil reserves are exhausted or too expensive to pump out of the ground, we are snookered, doomed, up a creek without a paddle ...
• Oil is too important and vital for the 101 other uses we use it for than to be burnt from the unintelligent conviction that it is inexhaustible.
• In so doing we are responsible for melting polar regions to very nicely free up sea lanes for shipping but which are disastrously affecting life support systems.
• This, along with retreating glaciers, with more woodland/forest fires and extreme weather from the officially, universally declared Climate Emergency by councils and governments around the world.

Please tell me what actions you intend to take over this positive, constructive, feedback to improve your services.

Both sides to renounce/dismantle nukes/WMD and even 2,000 Km missiles?

Will Alex suggest to HMG that our policy should be for both sides to renounce and dismantle nukes/WMD and even 2,000 Km missiles to end the war?

And Israel and Hezbollah to stop attacking each other to allow beautiful Lebanon to live?

Israel to keep within its borders.

British military products, including drones and similar war/peace products, of every kind not to be exported/shipped outside our borders.

I thought the wealthy nations, world's superpower, USA/Israel went for WMD to prevent them from being attacked.  So why does USA/Israel not only have them in great quantities but must also stop other nations from getting them, too by attacking them?